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Auteur Sujet: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!  (Lu 2695 fois)

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Corumplex

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It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« le: 27 juin 2007 à 08:35:16 »

Let's see if this board is really gone belly up.

I say that, in the final episode Mahoro returned only in spirit and joined with the spirit of Suguru as he dies. Suguru doesn't recognize this because he is so happy to be back with Mahoro.

This is foreshadowed by the "Haunted School" episode where "Red" Ando and Mizutani's ghosts find each other and then leave with Mizutani saying "Let's go home together!" When Mahoro and Suguru's ghosts get together Mahoro says "Let's go back home!"

No, Mahoro didn't physically come back. Her spirit was set free to join with Suguru's. If you want to look at it as a positive thing, than believe their spirits and love survived death.
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[RafaL]AxelTerizaki

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Re: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« Réponse #1 le: 27 juin 2007 à 14:04:49 »

Nice version. I didn't even think about that.

But to me, the real canon story would be the one in the manga anyways.
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DrizzlingEnthalpy

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Re: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« Réponse #2 le: 06 juillet 2007 à 03:29:37 »

I refuse to even consider the possibility that they're dead. The ending's sad enough as it is.

Aside from that, Yamaga's statements about Mahoromatic's ending at Fanime Con seem to support the "they're alive" theory. He specifically mentioned that the ending was supposed to parallel the beginning, as it begins with Suguru and Mahoro meeting for the first time, and it ends with them meeting for the first time again. ("Meeting for the first time again" are his words, not mine. Rather, they're his translator's words.)
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Dr Memory

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Re: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« Réponse #3 le: 11 juillet 2007 à 00:05:47 »

It's really difficult to say which should be held as canon.  From the information I have, the serialization in GUM ran from 1998 to September of 2004.  The final episode of Mahoromatic SMB was released in January of 2003.  It may very well be that the manga ending is a result of (or at least may have been tempered by) reaction to the end of the anime.

Neither canon is particularly pleasing to me, but if I had to choose one, the manga ending is at least a bit more satisfying.
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Corumplex

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Re: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« Réponse #4 le: 26 juillet 2007 à 05:38:39 »

Sorry I was gone so long. I really intended to respond to this on July 21 but I was distracted by some very important business and couldn't give it proper attention till now.

The ending of Mahoromatic was not a sad one. It was confirmation of what Mahoro believed, that there is a 'life' that goes on beyond our physical existence. Mahoro had doubted this but her encounter with the ghosts at the school gave her confidence that there was an afterlife and that there is choice in who you spend it with.

We are all involved in a game called "life" and we all will face pain and tears before we finally are done. Human or saint, it is only a matter of time. If you use your time well, you can live on with the wishes and memories of those who love you. What Mahoro showed us us that fighting death is not what you should make your life about, that is a struggle you will lose. Living well and making friends who love you and remember you is how you give meaning to it and assure that you will be remembered and live after you go to the grave.

Mahoromatic was about living. How to live a meaningful life and the hope that there can be joy with the ones we love in the after life when the tears of this life are done. That's what I believe Mahoro was about.

I know of no other character in anime who comes as close to having a 'soul' as does Mahoro. I love her and did not care at all for the unpleasant things that happened to her and those she loved. When I first learned her story my anger blinded me to acceptance of the true beauty of her end and her reunion with Suguru. As the sorrow lifted I was able to see the much deeper and more complex story, one that may apply to all of us, even those who of us who are flesh.

I'm happy that Mahoro will always be happy and alive in our hearts. I hope that when my trials and tears are through I will have such a reward.

My wish; Mahoro becomes the patron saint of all otaku! :142:
« Modifié: 26 juillet 2007 à 05:44:17 par Corumplex »
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Corumplex

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Re: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« Réponse #5 le: 28 juillet 2007 à 02:25:26 »

I know that Driz and Dr. M won't be happy, but I ask you to please imagine a new story......

Mahoro and Suguru are ghosts. They have returned to Japan and are looking over their friends there.

How do they communicate?

Can they effect events and change things to protect or help their old friends?

How have their friends lives developed?

How do they remember Suguru and Mahoro?

Do they get to learn of Suguru and Mahoro's fate?

Are they (the living) aware of the presence of the spirits?

Do they have to fight evil spirits?

Do they need to fight a resurgent Management?

What is the post-Saint world like?

And the most important question! Does Chizuko weigh 300 pounds?
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Corumplex

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Re: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« Réponse #6 le: 28 juillet 2007 à 18:52:56 »

I refuse to even consider the possibility that they're dead. The ending's sad enough as it is.

Aside from that, Yamaga's statements about Mahoromatic's ending at Fanime Con seem to support the "they're alive" theory. He specifically mentioned that the ending was supposed to parallel the beginning, as it begins with Suguru and Mahoro meeting for the first time, and it ends with them meeting for the first time again. ("Meeting for the first time again" are his words, not mine. Rather, they're his translator's words.)

I don't see any contradiction. They are meeting for the first time in the afterlife. And who cares, as long as their happy?
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Corumplex

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Re: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« Réponse #7 le: 02 août 2007 à 00:32:59 »

Another important question, what ever became of Guri? Did he get lucky, or go to the pound?
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DrizzlingEnthalpy

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Re: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« Réponse #8 le: 08 août 2007 à 08:16:37 »

I'd say the "they're ghosts" theory is a bit overanalytical. It's not entirely impossible, but there just doesn't seem to be any evidence to support it.

And as for Guri... well, I'm pretty sure it's unprecedented for a dog to live over twenty years.
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Corumplex

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Re: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« Réponse #9 le: 11 août 2007 à 23:52:31 »

Ok, so how did Guri end his days? I just hope something nice happened like he was adopted by Rin is the answer. I really wouldn't want to think that he went to a dog pound.

And, Yes they are ghosts. It's the only reasonable conclusion. Anything else and you just have to ignore or revise important parts of the story.

I'd say the "they're ghosts" theory is a bit overanalytical. It's not entirely impossible, but there just doesn't seem to be any evidence to support it.

And as for Guri... well, I'm pretty sure it's unprecedented for a dog to live over twenty years.
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DrizzlingEnthalpy

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Re: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« Réponse #10 le: 14 août 2007 à 07:26:31 »

And, Yes they are ghosts. It's the only reasonable conclusion. Anything else and you just have to ignore or revise important parts of the story.
You're joking, right? Like that time you said you ate a whole bathtub full of cherry cobbler?
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Dr Memory

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Re: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« Réponse #11 le: 15 août 2007 à 07:13:39 »

It's all a matter of interpretation... and personal taste.  If it is your choice to believe that Mahoro and Suguru are both dead and happy together in the spiritual world, that is all well and good.  Maybe I'm unrealistic in my view that there are other possibilities considering the technology that Saint possesses and their "spiritual" nature.

In the long run, I don't like the Anime ending because I think that Mahoro and Suguru get a raw deal.  Mahoro sacrifices herself to save Suguru only to make him miserable for the next 20 years.  And in the end, Suguru dies for no real noble purpose.  In many ways I feel like his attitude is "God, I'm glad this is over."

The manga ends up being only slightly more satisfying.  At least Suguru's purpose in life is to avenge the death of Mahoro... for which her is rewarded with a new Mahoro (the same Saint spirit) that now is human (The child of Ryuga and one of his students).

Both endings leave a lot to be desired.  Maybe my solution is no more satisfying... but in fills my needs.
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Hucklebubba

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Re: It's Worse than that, They're Dead!
« Réponse #12 le: 22 octobre 2007 à 08:09:58 »

Just saw the ending, and now I'm spoiling for a fight.  And by "fight" I of course mean "civilized, thoughtful discussion."

First, for the sake of establishing which side of the No Man's Land I'll be standing on during the conflict which will surely tear the entire world asunder, I should mention that I'm a staunch proponent of the "both alive" theory.

Secondly, I should also mention that my initial reaction to the ending--and here "initial" deserves emphasis which italics alone cannot provide--was borderline ecstasy.  Seriously.  Roaring furiously at the heavens, trying to make lightning arc between my outstretched fists, the whole nine yards (I have odd ways of expressing delight).

This reaction was due in large part to the fact that I'm a total junkie for happy endings, tempered by the other fact that the ending of Nu. . .er. . .another anime which, for the sake of spoiler avoidance, I will not name unless asked directly, left a smoldering hole through my chest.  In other words, I went into Mahoromatic running on fumes, and holding happy endings in roughly the same regard that a zombie does living brains.

In the interim, my enthusiasm has cooled somewhat, as I've had a chance to mull over some of the flaws.  Or rather, primarily, flaw singular.  Namely, the galling and thoroughly arbitrary 20 year gap.

To wit, I think I can offer some insight regarding the issues surrounding the aforementioned, which I will present in the form of a contrived FAQ!  Woo-hoo!  Contrived FAQ!

How could Mahoro--sweet, demure, pleasant-smelling Mahoro--watch Suguru squirm in abject misery for 20 years, and do nothing?

Short answer:  She couldn't, and didn't.  Long answer:  This question presupposes that Mahoro is a bastion of Jesus Plagiarism; that is, that she and Matthew are one in the same.  This was not the impression that I took away.  Mahoro is just Mahoro, and I don't think she had anything to say about the timing of her resurrection.

But they look and sound exactly the same!

Yeah, well, I look and sound like a bridge troll, but you don't see me demanding tribute from passers-by under threat of consumption.

Well then, how could Matthew etc. etc. ditto?

Taking into consideration that Matthew is, for all apparent intents and purposes, a deity, allow me to present my likely-unsatisfying rationalization:

Often in popular media, deities, when not labeled as expressly benevolent or malevolent, are generally portrayed as detached and indifferent.  This is even more likely to be the case when the deity in question is not given much time in the spotlight (as was the case with Matthew).

For those who don't find an uncaring Matthew a match for their tastes, feel free to sink your chops into my alternate explanation, which is somewhat more palatable and also incredibly lame.  Yes friends, I'm playing the Time-Perception card!  In a nutshell, this theory excused Matthew's apparent callousness by drawing attention to the fact that a mere double decade is less than nothing when weighed against eternity, and that Matthew can be absolved from leaving Suguru hanging for 20 years on account of that's how long it takes him/her to brush his/her teeth in the morning.  Figuratively speaking.

How about you explain the 20 year Suguru-shaft by some means that fall outside of the story itself?

Okay then, I will.  Suguru was made to stew for all those years because the two things anime writers love more than anything else are time-jump epilogues and character abuse.  How's that?

Bonus Questions!

You mentioned earlier being a junkie for happy endings, but the ending of Mahoromatic doesn't even qualify!  It isn't happy!  It's crap!  Or, as the Scottish say, c-r-r-rap!

Driz--may I call you Driz?--I sort of pictured you asking this question.  I hope you don't mind.

The precedent for the ending's potential unhappiness is based more or less solely around Suguru's screwed-over-ness, which doesn't provide as big of an impediment for me, considering that, as far as I'm concerned, Suguru can take a flying leap.

Okay, that may have been a bit harsh.  But also kind of. . .true.  I mean, it isn't that I don't care at all for Suguru, it's just that said caring is limited almost exclusively to the context of his relationship with Mahoro.  Aside from that, my contract only stipulates her safe return--fulfilled--and makes no mention of secondary objectives.

Whoops.  Sorry.  Mercenary fantasies are slipping out again.

Anyway, the over-arcing philosophy that I carry with me everywhere is that, as long as the cute anime girl makes it out okay, I'm as happy as a Labrador on a planet populated entirely by tummy-rubbing hand-creatures.

Speaking of Mahoro's return; I don't think you've made a convincing enough argument that said return actually happened in the physical sense.

Hey, I got five compelling arguments right here, punk.

Oh, er, I mean. . .ahem.  Yes, well, there are a bunch of little indicators hither and thither, but I think the most telling is her behavior upon her reappearance.  And I'll explain what I mean by that, right after I go off on another little tangent:

For obvious reasons, one cannot set any hard and fast rules in regards to the behavior of the spirit after it leaves the body.  However, in the medium of fiction--and some real-life schools of thought as well--it is generally accepted that release from this mortal shell brings with it a certain clarity.  Nothing quite so fancy as omniscience, but more a. . .knowing of all that needs to be known.

What I'm getting at with all this babble is that, had Mahoro been returned in spirit form, she would've homed in on Suguru like a Sidewinder to a MiG, rather than wandering around for a bit and ultimately saying, "Hey raggedy dude!  Could you tell me where Suguru is since I haven't yet realized that you are him?"

Okay, fine.  Now it's time for the real burning question:  What becomes of Guri?

It's quite obvious, really.  Following the attack on the Keepers, Slash--freed of all other obligations, and having already looked after Guri for some time--takes the young pup under his tutelage, teaching him the ways of the Deadly Panther Bot kata.  Guri goes on to open a dojo in Hiryu, and is remembered by history as not only being the discipline's only canine initiate, but also the only proselyte ever to achieve the rank of Grand Master.
« Modifié: 22 octobre 2007 à 08:12:29 par Hucklebubba »
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